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Jared Morland
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PostSubject: Something IS NOT Working??   Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:50 am

Our pastor began a new series yesterday and the title of the message was "The Devil and the Dollar". I have heard so many message on money that I wasn't just real excited or moved by the title to say the least. Tithes and offering have never been an area of contention with me so it wasn't giving that bothered me just a typical ho-hum attitude about the topic. Well as usual I was moved or just brought to focus on a particular scripture reference that he shared. He was preaching from Luke 18 and this was dialogue between a rich young ruler and Jesus and Peter had to chime in as well.

Luke 18:18-30

18And a ruler asked him, "Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" 19And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 20You know the commandments: "Do not commit adultery, Do not murder, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother."" 21And he said, "All these I have kept from my youth." 22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "One thing you still lack. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." 23But when he heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich. 24Jesus, seeing that he had become sad, said, "How difficult it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! 25For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God." 26Those who heard it said, "Then who can be saved?" 27But he said, "What is impossible with men is possible with God." 28And Peter said, "See, we have left our homes and followed you." 29And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or wife or brothers# or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30who will not receive many times more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life."


I was really drawn to the dialogue in verses 21 and then again at the end in verse 29.

As I began to think and reflect on my life and our lives as Christians I was drawn to verse 29 which is a promise by Jesus. "There is NO ONE who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children FOR THE SAKE OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD who will NOT RECEIVE many time more IN THIS TIME and in the age to come eternal life".

NO ONE means NO ONE. So as Christians if we are not living blessed and are not experiencing the blessings of being heirs to the Kingdom right now in this life then maybe we need to take a good inventory of our lives and walk with God and see where we aren't hitting the mark. Are we like the rich young ruler who have done everything BUT taken care of the poor and less fortunate? There is a reason if we aren't living with blessings that are abundant. God created us to be more than conquerors. The Lord is our Shepard and we shall NOT want. He make's us to lie down in green pastures. Not dry pastures or live in lack and anguish.

My prayer and declaration is that I am a King's Kid...We are heirs to the Kingdom and we should be blessed in spite of what the economy or government says.

What's not working with you?

Looking forward to feedback on this one.
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PostSubject: Re: Something IS NOT Working??   Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:06 pm

Good stuff Jared. I guess first we need to define living blessed. To me living blessed isn't a nice big comfortable house, perfect relationships, a well paying job or living so I don't need to worry about finances. That's not the blessed I'm thinking of. I truly believe that being blessed is to be able to hold onto my hope and to always be able to look to the Holy Spirit for strength, for guidance, for comfort and peace no matter what situation I'm in. As long as I can stay focused on Jesus, it does'nt matter if I haven't ate in days or if I live in a shack or if I constantly face persecution. It's a blessing to be content with whatever this world gives me, because of the freedom Jesus gives me! Praise God for His Grace! Paul even points out that he has lived to much and lived with very little, but he has learned to be content with whatever he has because he is focused on Jesus.

Now let's dig into the rich young ruler. From what I understand, It was'nt the fact he had money that Jesus required him to give away all his possessions. Jesus knew his heart and He knew the young rich ruler worshiped his money. If we look at Zaccheus in Luke 19, Jesus did'nt require poverty of Zaccheus. Zaccheus demonstrated his repentance by giving half his pssessions to the poor and making restitution up to 4 times the amount he had defrauded. Jesus was pleased with his change of heart and said "Today, salvation has to come to this house."

The key is Jesus KNOWS our hearts! Jesus know if our "possessions" actully "possess" us......

I'll finish with this..... When teaching on prayer, Jesus said it was sufficient to pray for "our daily bread.". Jesus echoes Proverbs 30 "Give me neither poverty nor riches, feed me with the food that is my portion.". So no matter what my "daily bread" or "portion" is, I find joy and blessings knowing that I belong to the Most High

God Bless!! Mike
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Vic Kinikin
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PostSubject: Re: Something IS NOT Working??   Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:54 pm

I think that when teaching the blessings of God that we should be careful not to confuse what is being said. It is not talking about worldly "blessings", but spiritual blessings. If we think of this as blessings of a better and bigger life, which in and of it's self is not wrong, then we start to fall into a mind set that pursues health, wealth and prosperity. If we follow this thinking then we lose sight of the fact that we are at times called to a life of suffering and sacrifice. If we forget this then it is easy for us to blame God for misfortune or feel guilty that you don't have material possessions like some others have and feel like you have not pleased God. This is also the basis of a salvation by works type of mentality. The fact that you have anything from a nice home to a good savings account doesn't mean that you cannot enter into the kingdom, it just means that you have to understand that you are blessed with these things to use them for the furthering of Gods kingdom. We have earned nothing on our own, but we have been given everything! Now how you understand that in the depths of your heart determines where you stand in God's eyes.
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Myles Barfield
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PostSubject: Re: Something IS NOT Working??   Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:06 pm

Something truly fascinating about the Apostle Paul is he saw "Trials" and "Hardship" as a blessing! He saw this as an opportunity which he had to lean on God, because he had nothing else! In this true blessing comes; its not about world its about GOD!

Jesus, never said that we were to be rich. In fact there are far more scriptures on suffering than on "Earthly" blessings! I stopped looking when I hit 30 scriptures which spoke of the truth that a Christians life will be filled with suffering and hardships. Our blessing is so much more than any Earthly blessing, its eternal.

Now that said will God give us money, wealth...etc? ABSOLUTELY; if it is for benefit of HIS KINGDOM. Understand what I said there, he did not intend for us to live RICH (monetary) lives here, but he will give to us as He sees how we steward the money given to us.

The important thing here is; its NOT about us, its about HIM. Good stuff guys!

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skipp phipps
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PostSubject: question   Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:35 pm

I think a good way to view this topic would be to ask a question.....

Has God ever "blessed" you with an earthly possesion?
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PostSubject: Re: Something IS NOT Working??   Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:37 pm

Honestly guys, the more I read this, the more I'm confused and concerned. Let me break down what I'm reading and why I'm confused and concerned. I don't know if I'm reading it wrong, if I am, feel free to help me understand....

1. The whole post stems from a series titled "The Devil and the Dollar". So we've established we're talking about money or financial blessings.

2.
Quote :
So as Christians if we are not living blessed and are not experiencing the blessings of being heirs to the Kingdom right now in this life then maybe we need to take a good inventory of our lives and walk with God and see where we aren't hitting the mark.


To me this quote suggests if we are not living financially blessed, then something is wrong with our faith and something is wrong with our walk with The Lord. Am I reading that wrong?

3.
Quote :
The Lord is our Shepard and we shall NOT want. He make's us to lie down in green pastures. Not dry pastures or live in lack and anguish

Once again, this is being used to address financial blessings. Green Pastures actually does not mean we are living comfortably financially in this world. Here's an awesome little quote from Matthew Henry's commentary,
Quote :
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures. We have the supports and comforts of this life from God's good hand, our daily bread from him as our Father. The greatest abundance is but a dry pasture to a wicked man, WHO RELISHES THAT ONLY IN IT WHICH PLEASES THE SENSES; but to a godly man, who tastes the goodness of God in all his enjoyments, and by faith relishes that, THOUGH HE HAS BUT LITTLE OF THE WORLD, it is a green pasture, Ps. 37:16; Prov. 15:16,17. God's ordinaces are the green pastures in which food is provided for all believers; the word of life is the nourishment of the new man...... God makes his saints to lie down; he gives them quiet and contentment in their own minds, what ever their lot is; their souls dwell at ease in him, and that makes every pasture green.

I mean, WOW, is there anything more to say? So I read this and I go back to Paul's teachings on learning to be content in every situation, then I read your post Jared and I'm confused about what the Pastor was teaching. I'm also concerned because it totes a very dangerous line that's leaning towards Health, Wealth and Prosperity. Your final question really had me concerned too bro. Like I said, maybe I misread it or misunderstood it. I hope so and if you can explain it better, I wouldn't get my feelings hurt if I was wrong.

I say this out of Love bro, not out of judgment or with any ill intentions. Like I said, I'm just confused and concerned.

If God has blessed any of us, it's not because our faith was stronger than the others, and it's not because our walk with Him was right. We can't earn anything God blesses us with. Everything He blesses us with is meant to bless others with, to show His love to them, just as He has showed His love to us. We recieve with an open hand and we give with an open hand. Sometimes that's easier said than done, but we just need to pray for the strength and for the guidance from the Holy Spirit.

God Bless, Mike



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Myles Barfield
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PostSubject: Re: Something IS NOT Working??   Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:07 pm

Good points Mike

Job 5:17
Blessed is the man whom God corrects; so do not despise the discipline of the Almighty.


This blessing is connected to the knowledge that God is at work to direct us in the right path. God's correction is just as a good parent a display of His love for us.

Psalm 1:1-3 says
Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers. But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on his law he meditates day and night. He is like a tree planted by streams of water, which yields its fruit in season and whose leaf does not wither. Whatever he does prospers.”


The book of Psalms is full of references to this kind of happy blessing for those who love and fear the Lord God.
In the New Testament, there are two primary Greek words translated as “blessing.” Makarios carries the meaning of happiness that we just looked at. The Beatitudes of Matthew 5 and Luke 6 describe the happy state of those who find their purpose and fulfillment in God. As in the Psalms, the best life is available for those who love and fear God and order their lives according to His Word. Romans 4:6-8 ties this happy blessing to those whose sins are forgiven, for they know the relationship to God has been restored. Eulogeo focuses more on good words or the good report that others give of someone and also describes the blessing that we say over our food

Matthew 26:26
Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.”


This word is where we get our English word “eulogy,” in which we speak well of one who has passed away. Ephesians 1:3 blesses God for all the blessings that He gives us in Christ, and 1 Peter 3:9 instructs us to bless those who mistreat us, because we were called to receive a blessing from God.

The ultimate blessing that God has given is the new life and forgiveness that comes through faith in His Son, Jesus Christ. The material blessings we enjoy from day to day are temporary, but the spiritual blessings available to us in Christ encompass time and eternity, as well as material and immaterial things. As the Psalmist said

Psalm 146:5
Blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the LORD his God


Every ounce of Biblical truth that I find is clear that Jesus did not come to give us health, wealth and happiness now. He came to save us from our sins so that we can have be in eternity with Him.
FOLLOWING Christ is not a pass to all the material things men desire in this life but is a blessing of eternal life. Our desire should not be to have our best life now but should be that of the Apostle Paul who had learned to be content “in whatever state I am”

Philippians 4:11
Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content.



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Vic Kinikin
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PostSubject: Re: Something IS NOT Working??   Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:45 pm

Mike and Myles, you guys have left me nothing to really say other that I agree! The blessing is spiritual growth. I know that God blesses in other ways, like with financial help, but think about that for a minute. Where did that money come from? More than likely it came from someone that God directed, because they have abundance that he uses for His glory, to share and help you in a time of need. Now that is why some Christians get confused, they think that they have earned all the material possessions they have, but they were given those to benefit His kingdom and glorify His name! I have been on the recieving end of such blessings and I'll tell you something, I knew it was from God and both times that it has happened both said pretty much the same thing. God has given us and we feel led to help you. Both times it was almost the exact amount needed to cover a payment we didn't have. So with that said I'll finish with this. If you have been given abundance in any area of your life your response shouldn't be to save and use it to soley make yourself happy, you should begin to ask God how you should use it to glorify His kingdom and that when the Holy Spirit leads you to help that you are not hesitant and you do it immediately! That is a blessing in itself, asking to hear from God and obeying when He directs you to move and to be good stewards of what He has given us. Love you all! God Bless!
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Myles Barfield
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PostSubject: Re: Something IS NOT Working??   Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:46 pm

Vic Kinikin wrote:
Where did that money come from? More than likely it came from someone that God directed...

That is a great point Vic!

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skipp phipps
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PostSubject: Re: Something IS NOT Working??   Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:41 am

I've listened to the sermon that Jared is describing and I didn't get a "prosperity" gospel theme at all.

I think sometimes we've become so sensitive to the error of the prosperity gospel, that when we read things in the bible about blessing, we immediatley react to make sure we aren't in error.

Personally, I think we need to be careful that in avoiding the prosperity error, we don't fall into the poverty error either.

The bible has alot to say about being obedient, being blessed, having our needs taken care of. If we read these verses wtihout any bias, I think anyone would come away with the idea that God is generous, he is a good father, he wants his children to be blessed and fruitful.

It doesn't mean that I ignor the scriptures that speak about suffering, it also doesn't mean that ignore the scriptures on blessing. Proverbs for example, gives us plenty of examples of general principles on handling wealth and what to do with it and how God will work if we do.

I just want to make sure we don't paint God as only a disciplinarian. He is that when we need it, but he is also generous and loving when we are obedient. Both come from a place of love and so both are good.
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Myles Barfield
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PostSubject: Re: Something IS NOT Working??   Fri Dec 21, 2012 11:07 am

I think that an indicator in this of a "good" steward is clear as you look at the individual. For example...and yes I am about to name names here. Look at these two men. Creflo Dollar for example in his very expensive suit and jewelry that likely cost more than I make in a year; this IS NOT what blessing is...it is being a bad steward. Verses a man like Francis Chan; who likely makes just as much as Creflo yet lives in a 3 bedroom house and often "under dresses."

This is not making a call on how either of these men have been blessed, but it is a "raising of the eyebrow" as to how each is being a steward of what has been given him. I am not making a call on either man whether they are under Grace and Salvation or not... that's not my place at all. But, I am saying that when holding each of these men up against the Bible...I believe it is clear which is in line with scripture and which is not.

Yes Skipp, you are right I am VERY guarded against the "word of Faith" movement. I was raised around it, and know that it is extremely unBiblical, it is a false doctrine and distorts the truth of Gods word. I for one will not listen to any preacher who comes anywhere near these teachers. I am not saying they can never repent and come back to the God of the Bible, but I am saying there are just to many good men that I do trust to spend time with anyone or any church that is involved with them.

Sorry, kind went off topic there I guess. I do believe God will bless you with money. However, as has been said before...I do not feel He blesses you with money in order to give US the PERSON stuff. I find no place under the Covenant with Christ where we are ever promised "riches." There are many in the old Testament where the Jews where promised things

The New Testament paints a very different picture from the Old where “wealth” is concerned; there is a different standard from the Old Testament. The church for example was never given a land or the promise of riches. I found once I started separating myself from the “word of Faith” movement that they quote the Old Testament and old covenants allot, but when it comes to the New Testament and the Teachings of Christ they “dance around” and take scripture out of context.
The New Testament is much more concerned with the Spiritual and much less with the financial.

Quote :
Ephesians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.

Christ spoke warning throughout scripture of financial wealth, here is one in Matthew concerning of the seed of God's Word falling among thorns

Quote :
Matthew 13:22
As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

This is the first reference to earthly riches in the New Testament. Clearly, this is not a positive image.

Quote :
Mark 10:23
And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!”

How hard it is for those who have riches to enter the kingdom of God!’” It was not impossible—for all things are possible with God—but it would be “hard.” And it is true that anything could be substituted for “Wealth” here. The point is anything that takes your eyes off God, anything that we put before God…or the Mission. I think someone living in a “poverty gospel” may well be living in that because they know of the dangers that money can cause. I have never once read “in Scripture” where we are warned against living in a “poverty gospel.” Jesus said once it would be better to “pluck out your eye” (Matthew 18:9) rather than be tempted by sin. From this one could easily reason that He would say it would be better to be living in a cave with nothing than to live in a mansion surrounded by riches and apart form the Kingdom or Gods will.

I have heard many of the “word of faith” guys say “Don’t put yourself in a poverty gospel” God doesn’t want you there…but I would disagree with that. If in fact money is separating you from God; you should live in poverty! I have also heard many of them say Jesus was rich! Now, there is no proof of this in scripture, but let’s say for a second that He was rich. Look at His ministry, he had no home (Luke 9:58) None of the Apostles went around buying things for themselves they were all often given much (places to stay, and food) but I never see where he actually runs around spending money on themselves; in fact you often see the opposite as in Luke Luke 3:11 “Whoever has two tunics is to share with him who has none, and whoever has food is to do likewise.” This is more of what we see in scripture. I would say compared to Jesus and the Apostles we are ALL wealthier than the “Rich Ruler” in fact (Matthew 19).

Quote :
Luke 16:13
No servant can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money.

Again, the imagery here is of wealth as a negative influence on spirituality and one that can keep us from God. I love how John Piper puts it.



I am truly not trying to be a grouchy old man on this topic...but I see this as something that can distract any of us from truth, I love you all, and don't want anyone to be pulled away from true gospel by these false teachers. The primary key, is knowing that if God has given you much...its not for you. It is for Him, if He blesses you, its so you can bless others.

Like I said this is a painful topic, especially for us here in the USA because culturally we are all taught to seek wealth, and to have much is good. But, the Bible speaks of a much different lifestyle.

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skipp phipps
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PostSubject: Re: Something IS NOT Working??   Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:20 pm

I think I tend to agree with you. I put it that money is nuetral...the heart however is not. I see throughout the bible that it is the "LOVE" of it which will lead us away. I agree that it is how it is used.

Here is the issue I have though....I assume you have spent money on yourself this year? I assume you have things in your house that you really don't need? Something more then food and clothing like scripture prescribes. So I am assuming then that you are comfortable with some level of prosperity. You referenced Chan and his 3 bedroom house. Why doesn't he live in a 1 bedroom?

See, the problem is there is always going to be someone who has less then we do. So we can always point the finger and say "they are using their wealth for their own comfort". Guess what, so do you. So do I.

I believe the bible describes much about how we should use the things that he has blessed us with. I also believe that God is generous and would give me something for comfort. Not because I deserve it, but because he is good. If I love these things more then I love him, then I am guilty of idolatry. (Romans 1) I also believe that he can instruct me to get rid of them or take them from me at any time, he is still God, he is still good and I still love him.

LIke paul, I have had times of much and times of little. If I wasn't generous with little, I am not generous with much.

The problem I have with both views is that Jesus is not at the center of either one. We are! In prosperity it is my faith, my working that makes me prosperous. IN poverty, it is my refusal of worldy things that makes me spiritually prospersous.

He gives, he takes away. He is the center of the gospel. He is generous. That is my problem with a poverty gospel (mentioned in scripture next to prosperity gospel; ) it makes God out to be a non generous God.

See, I don't think at all that we can manipulate God. I see people in scripture who had wealth and used it to advance the kingdom. (The book of look was finianced by a wealthy person) When God is at the center, then I feel blessed no matter my outward circumstance.

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PostSubject: Re: Something IS NOT Working??   Fri Dec 21, 2012 12:55 pm

skipp phipps wrote:
my problem with a poverty gospel (mentioned in scripture next to prosperity gospel

Can you give that scripture, I'm not "challenging" you, just curious where it is? And you are right, I do have things I don't need, I have given my daughters things they don't need. But the problem is "I think" living in comfort verses, living way beyond comfort. And yes, I know that sounds a bit hypocritical. I think this is one of the reasons people in some of these poverty stricken countries are so much more blessed then we are when it comes to matters of faith and God Skipp. They do not have the distractions we do. In truth they probably live more like the early church then we do.

We here in America are a very spoiled people. Although you are very right...where do we draw that "line" on what is enough and what is to much? This is a very challenging question. And I will be honest...I am not sure. I do know though that as far as modern day teachers go, as you listen and hold them and what they say against the Bible; its pretty clear who are in line with scripture and who are not...

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PostSubject: Re: Something IS NOT Working??   Fri Dec 21, 2012 2:34 pm

LOL, the statement was tounge in cheek...since neither one is mentioned by name Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Something IS NOT Working??   Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:38 am

Good Question Exclamation Exclamation
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PostSubject: Re: Something IS NOT Working??   Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:40 am

I think you need to pray about it!!
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PostSubject: Re: Something IS NOT Working??   Sat Oct 25, 2014 8:49 am

I'm having trouble with cleaning!! scratch
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